Comments on: Storing Solar Power In Molten Salt http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html The Guide To Highly Efficient Things Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:35:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Joe http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html/comment-page-1#comment-76172 Joe Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:42:24 +0000 http://www.metaefficient.com/uncategorized/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html#comment-76172 The ancient “Solar One”, “Solar Two” in Daggett, CA. originated from a company that is now under the UTC umbrella, just like Hamilton Sundstrand, SolarReserve, Pratt Whitney Rocketdyne, etc. The ancient “Solar One”, “Solar Two” in Daggett, CA. originated from a company that is now under the UTC umbrella, just like Hamilton Sundstrand, SolarReserve, Pratt Whitney Rocketdyne, etc.

]]> By: Uncle B http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html/comment-page-1#comment-74999 Uncle B Sun, 12 Jul 2009 10:34:00 +0000 http://www.metaefficient.com/uncategorized/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html#comment-74999 It is perhaps, time for humanity to follow the more natural cycles and turn off at night too! We have been driven in America by an unnatural vulture capitalism, akin to slavery, and it is now time for democracy to surpass corporate living and stop the madness! Check with your doctor! Before the industrial revolution and the vulture capitalistic mad dash for ROI, we were agrarian, and slept nights! To return to a more natural cycle will improve our health and possibly our war-like attitudes will be softened! Perhaps, trying to force the sun to work night-shift is part of the same drive for ROI that has lead to the American capital rush towards the Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong stock markets, leaving Americans short on money and deserting the American dollar altogether! Is this a greed driven obsession of the paper, a corporate world, driving America in the wrong direction at many junctures? Do we need "Corrective" laws added to the basic corporate and business laws to compensate for the human factor, the environmental factor? Forcing the sun seems such and extreme measure! To mold mother nature against her will one more time? And force humans into more waking hours ? It is perhaps, time for humanity to follow the more natural cycles and turn off at night too! We have been driven in America by an unnatural vulture capitalism, akin to slavery, and it is now time for democracy to surpass corporate living and stop the madness! Check with your doctor! Before the industrial revolution and the vulture capitalistic mad dash for ROI, we were agrarian, and slept nights! To return to a more natural cycle will improve our health and possibly our war-like attitudes will be softened! Perhaps, trying to force the sun to work night-shift is part of the same drive for ROI that has lead to the American capital rush towards the Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong stock markets, leaving Americans short on money and deserting the American dollar altogether! Is this a greed driven obsession of the paper, a corporate world, driving America in the wrong direction at many junctures? Do we need “Corrective” laws added to the basic corporate and business laws to compensate for the human factor, the environmental factor? Forcing the sun seems such and extreme measure! To mold mother nature against her will one more time? And force humans into more waking hours ?

]]> By: James http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html/comment-page-1#comment-29703 James Fri, 26 Dec 2008 04:04:44 +0000 http://www.metaefficient.com/uncategorized/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html#comment-29703 Does anyone have any comment about using copper instead of stainless steel for transporting and/or holding the molten nitrate salt? Will it be too corrosive for the copper? Does anyone have any comment about using copper instead of stainless steel for transporting and/or holding the molten nitrate salt? Will it be too corrosive for the copper?

]]> By: James http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html/comment-page-1#comment-29699 James Fri, 26 Dec 2008 03:44:39 +0000 http://www.metaefficient.com/uncategorized/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html#comment-29699 Troye, You seem to know quitet a bit about the molten salt technology and the application of stainless steel. I am assuming you are referring to the use of stainless steel for a containment vessel for the hot salt. What are the exact specifications for the stainless steel type, and the thickness of the vessel you recommend? And are you confident that the metal will hold up without having to worry about corrosion (for a long time)? Can you tell me which technical report you are talking about? I would like to read it. You can also reach me at my email address: cybergenic_systems@yahoo.com Troye,

You seem to know quitet a bit about the molten salt technology and the application of stainless steel. I am assuming you are referring to the use of stainless steel for a containment vessel for the hot salt. What are the exact specifications for the stainless steel type, and the thickness of the vessel you recommend? And are you confident that the metal will hold up without having to worry about corrosion (for a long time)? Can you tell me which technical report you are talking about? I would like to read it. You can also reach me at my email address: cybergenic_systems@yahoo.com

]]> By: Troye Welch http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html/comment-page-1#comment-23748 Troye Welch Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:09:47 +0000 http://www.metaefficient.com/uncategorized/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html#comment-23748 Juan Adame, No one said anything about chlorides. It is nitrates we're talking about. The stainless steel held up fine (trouble with some valves, but nothing major) and there are multi-hundred page reports compiled and years of data on all of this. Also, I wouldn't call it outdated... Google Ausra, Brightsource, and eSolar. These are all modern-day companies doing the same thing. They may or may not use molten salt as a thermal storage medium, but they all recognize the concept. Also, if you actually looked at the photos above and the original photos of Solar 1, you would see that the towers in their entirety are identical, not just the crane. At least eSolar's conceptual drawings are their own. The graphic at the top of the page is a blatant photoshop composite of a much older system than they would have you believe. Salt was chosen because it was cheap and because the best oils (synthetic/silicone based such as Therminol) will only go up to 400 degrees or so. (see my previous comments on thermodynamic efficiency) Way to double post. Got any more thoughts? Juan Adame,

No one said anything about chlorides. It is nitrates we’re talking about. The stainless steel held up fine (trouble with some valves, but nothing major) and there are multi-hundred page reports compiled and years of data on all of this.

Also, I wouldn’t call it outdated… Google Ausra, Brightsource, and eSolar. These are all modern-day companies doing the same thing. They may or may not use molten salt as a thermal storage medium, but they all recognize the concept.

Also, if you actually looked at the photos above and the original photos of Solar 1, you would see that the towers in their entirety are identical, not just the crane. At least eSolar’s conceptual drawings are their own. The graphic at the top of the page is a blatant photoshop composite of a much older system than they would have you believe.

Salt was chosen because it was cheap and because the best oils (synthetic/silicone based such as Therminol) will only go up to 400 degrees or so. (see my previous comments on thermodynamic efficiency)

Way to double post. Got any more thoughts?

]]> By: Peter Francis http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html/comment-page-1#comment-23385 Peter Francis Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:57:02 +0000 http://www.metaefficient.com/uncategorized/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html#comment-23385 It is interesting to compare the cost of converting solar power to electricity with solar cells and then using sodium sulphur batteries to store the electricity in the sunless periods. Has there been any feasibility studies to compare costs. It is interesting to compare the cost of converting solar power to electricity with solar cells and then using sodium sulphur batteries to store the electricity in the sunless periods. Has there been any feasibility studies to compare costs.

]]> By: Mahmoud Kabalan http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html/comment-page-1#comment-14325 Mahmoud Kabalan Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:22:25 +0000 http://www.metaefficient.com/uncategorized/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html#comment-14325 Nice technology hopefully it will help reduce the disadvantage of having no sun at night Nice technology hopefully it will help reduce the disadvantage of having no sun at night

]]> By: Juan Adame http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html/comment-page-1#comment-4089 Juan Adame Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:56:40 +0000 http://www.metaefficient.com/uncategorized/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html#comment-4089 Well this is a kind of pointless technology. Its not even moving forward, it would be expensive to build a facililty using it, as molten salt, ie chlorides are highly corrosive at those temperatures. Stainless steel? not for long, Chloride stress corrosion cracking and causitc shock would pretty much murder steam tubes if not the piping hauling it around. It would be incredibly hard to maintain anykind of Ph control... yeah the whole thing is a night mare. But way to go. keep on turning out mediocre improvements to outdated methods. Ever stop to wonder if the cranes on top of the solar towers had a practical application there, and were therefore somewhat standard? Just a thought. Well this is a kind of pointless technology. Its not even moving forward, it would be expensive to build a facililty using it, as molten salt, ie chlorides are highly corrosive at those temperatures. Stainless steel? not for long, Chloride stress corrosion cracking and causitc shock would pretty much murder steam tubes if not the piping hauling it around. It would be incredibly hard to maintain anykind of Ph control… yeah the whole thing is a night mare.
But way to go. keep on turning out mediocre improvements to outdated methods.
Ever stop to wonder if the cranes on top of the solar towers had a practical application there, and were therefore somewhat standard? Just a thought.

]]> By: Juan Adame http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html/comment-page-1#comment-4088 Juan Adame Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:54:52 +0000 http://www.metaefficient.com/uncategorized/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html#comment-4088 Well this is a kind of pointless technology. Its not even moving forward, it would be expensive to build a facililty using it, as molten salt, ie chlorides are highly corrosive at those temperatures. Stainless steel? not for long, Chloride stress corrosion cracking and causitc shock would pretty much murder steam tubes if not the piping hauling it around. It would be incredibly hard to maintain anykind of Ph control... yeah the whole thing is a night mare. But way to go. keep on turning out mediocre improvements to outdated methods. Ever stop to wonder if the cranes on top of the solar towers had a practical application there, and where therefore somewhat standard? Just a thought. Well this is a kind of pointless technology. Its not even moving forward, it would be expensive to build a facililty using it, as molten salt, ie chlorides are highly corrosive at those temperatures. Stainless steel? not for long, Chloride stress corrosion cracking and causitc shock would pretty much murder steam tubes if not the piping hauling it around. It would be incredibly hard to maintain anykind of Ph control… yeah the whole thing is a night mare.
But way to go. keep on turning out mediocre improvements to outdated methods.
Ever stop to wonder if the cranes on top of the solar towers had a practical application there, and where therefore somewhat standard? Just a thought.

]]> By: Troye Welch http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html/comment-page-1#comment-3342 Troye Welch Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:32:38 +0000 http://www.metaefficient.com/uncategorized/storing-solar-power-in-molten-salt.html#comment-3342 Karl et all, This is old news. (Specifically, over 20 years old) Google "Solar One", "Solar Two" in Daggett CA. Thermodymanically, using the Carnot cycle (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle) your efficiency depends on the temperature difference between your hot and cold bodies (the steam turbine is a heat engine, just like a steam engine of old). Soooo, since your cold side is usually a cooling tower, river, lake, ocean, etc, it's pretty much fixed. You get efficiency by getting your hot side as hot as possible given your materials available. The potasium/sodium nitrate mix that is usually used in these "molten salt" is handled in stainless steel piping with stainless pumping and has a quite low (think water) viscosity when molten, I think. The solar two plant lost some (10%?) efficiency because they had to use electric resistance heating around the piping (I guess they never heard of good insulation) to keep the salts from "freezing" or undergoing phase change. These electrical parasitic losses would kick in at night or periods of cloud cover. In larger storage tanks, the ratio of the surface area to the volume decreases. The solar two team said their tank would lose something like 1% of it's heat per *month* There's a lot of info out there about power towers (Spain is actually the new leader here, sad to say). Also, I'm just a bit offended that the top graphic (quasi-rendering) is a blatant ripoff of the solar two project in Daggett (near Barstow) CA. Even the yellow crane at the top of the receiver is copied. (Oops! Better care photoshopping next time guys!!) The diagrams are all redrawn/regurgitated from what sunlabs. Eric Anderson, United Technologies, Solar Reserve, et all, should be ashamed for trying to pass this work off as original... the NREL is a good place to start for people looking into more research on this (http://www.nrel.gov/csp/) Note you can see the yellow crane at the top of the receiver at solar two. The array is de-focused; you can see the two focal spots in the air during the day to either side of the tower. Cheers! Karl et all,

This is old news. (Specifically, over 20 years old) Google “Solar One”, “Solar Two” in Daggett CA. Thermodymanically, using the Carnot cycle (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle) your efficiency depends on the temperature difference between your hot and cold bodies (the steam turbine is a heat engine, just like a steam engine of old). Soooo, since your cold side is usually a cooling tower, river, lake, ocean, etc, it’s pretty much fixed. You get efficiency by getting your hot side as hot as possible given your materials available. The potasium/sodium nitrate mix that is usually used in these “molten salt” is handled in stainless steel piping with stainless pumping and has a quite low (think water) viscosity when molten, I think. The solar two plant lost some (10%?) efficiency because they had to use electric resistance heating around the piping (I guess they never heard of good insulation) to keep the salts from “freezing” or undergoing phase change. These electrical parasitic losses would kick in at night or periods of cloud cover. In larger storage tanks, the ratio of the surface area to the volume decreases. The solar two team said their tank would lose something like 1% of it’s heat per *month*

There’s a lot of info out there about power towers (Spain is actually the new leader here, sad to say). Also, I’m just a bit offended that the top graphic (quasi-rendering) is a blatant ripoff of the solar two project in Daggett (near Barstow) CA. Even the yellow crane at the top of the receiver is copied. (Oops! Better care photoshopping next time guys!!) The diagrams are all redrawn/regurgitated from what sunlabs. Eric Anderson, United Technologies, Solar Reserve, et all, should be ashamed for trying to pass this work off as original…

the NREL is a good place to start for people looking into more research on this (http://www.nrel.gov/csp/) Note you can see the yellow crane at the top of the receiver at solar two. The array is de-focused; you can see the two focal spots in the air during the day to either side of the tower. Cheers!

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